“Just so you understand, Europe is loaning the money to Ukraine. They get their money back.” “Now, in fact to be frank, we paid. We paid 60 percent of the total defaults, and it was like the U.S. — loans, guarantee grants — and we provided real money, to be clear.”

One question that remains is whether Europe will step in if the U.S. pulls back from Ukraine. “Ukraine is going to keep defending its territory,” Dobriansky said. “What we know on the table right now is that the United States has not even promised as much as Europe right now,